124: Meet The Million Dollar Data Engineer w/ Zach Wilson

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I was making $30K in 2014 and I made $500K in 2019, so five years.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That's Zach Wilson, a data engineer who has worked for Facebook, Netflix, and Airbnb.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And like you heard, more than 15x'd his salary to over half a million dollars in

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: less than five years.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_02]: If I save the company ten times my salary, then I deserve 10%.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, you'll learn what it takes to have a successful data career.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's one of the key things to my success, and I still do this even today.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Is, I need a-

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You'll hear Zach's magical transformation from drug user to million dollar data engineer.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew that there was a moment that changed my life forever.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course you'll learn what you need to know to go from data analyst to data

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: engineer.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I think other things that you really need to know are going to be like, you need

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to know like-

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So stay tuned to hear the full story and advice from the million dollar data engineer, Zach Wilson.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You've worked for Facebook, you've worked for Netflix, you've worked for Airbnb,

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you've made a crap ton of money at all those different places, over $500K.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But you kind of started your career as a data analyst making like $30K-ish a year.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, yeah for sure.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It was actually here, we're in Utah right now and it was kind of down the street

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: From where we're filming this is where I started my career, is doing tableau and all

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that stuff.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah for sure.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's pretty crazy that you could go from like $30K to like $500K in, that was

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: probably what, seven-ish years?

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was making $30K like in 2014 and I made $500K in 2019, so five years.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: In five years?

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was like essentially close to like a doubling every year.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: That was like roughly what it was.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think a lot of people who watch the show are getting into data and they'd like

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: to do something even remotely similar.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you like in those five years, what do you chalk up your, how you were able

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to do that?

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a couple things there.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Part of it is that I just didn't live a very balanced life.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think one of the things that is important to remember when you see outside

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: success is what was the price they paid for that?

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: What was the sacrifice they made for that?

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Definitely from 18, when I was 18 till I was like 24 or 25, I stayed inside coding

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: on the weekends.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I had startups.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I had a startup for Magic the Gathering that I did that it was an app that got

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to 50,000 users.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I had another startup for art management that I did on the weekends that we got

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: over 500 artists who were all using it to manage their art and professional lives.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I had a third startup that was for Call of Duty Warzone where we tracked the stats

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: of different players and how they play well together.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Part of it is that I just eat, sleep, breathe code.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a part of it.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: For me, I am okay with coding seven days a week.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Not eight hours a day seven days a week because I think that is unhealthy.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think that putting a little bit in each day, I think that's one of the

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: key things to my success and I still do this even today, is I need to write one

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: line of code every day.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of those things that's similar to...

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a couple of these.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to do one push-up every day and I need to write one line of code every day.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Because one of the things about that commitment is it seems so small.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, okay...

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it is.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it really honestly is because I'm sick or I have no energy and it's

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: like, okay, yeah, I am literally going to go and update the readme.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: That counts.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It counts because I did a commit and it counts.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Generally speaking, when I write one line of code, that overcomes the inertia of

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: getting into the creative process.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Then one line maybe turns into 100 or 200 and then I'm like, okay, cool, I

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: have a cool feature here I can now ship.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's one part of it.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: There are always multitudes of parts of things.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that is a big part of it is just having that determination to be

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: successful.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a big part of it.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I think another part of it is finding the right people though.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Finding the right people in your life.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: When I got in at Facebook, that was my first big tech company and they were

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: paying me like $180.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Really most of the growth I saw was actually after I got into big tech

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: because it was going from like $180 to $500.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That was...

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't expect that.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That was actually something I did not anticipate because when I lived out

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: here in Utah, when I was making the 30K, when I was having a vision for where

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I was at 35, I was like...

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I visioned myself making 200, 200 at 35.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: That was something because that sounded reasonable.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That sounded like I'm going to be so rich.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be so great.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the things that happened for me though is I met one

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: person and one person can change your life.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: That person was my manager at Facebook and his name was Jitender.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Jitender and I worked together for four years.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: For two years at Facebook and two years at Netflix, he was my manager.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Same guy for four years.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the things that this guy did was he was very different from other

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: managers.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of managers are risk averse because they're like,

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: we're only going to give you projects that we know you are 100% capable of

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: doing.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't want a project to fail.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The problem with that is if you have a manager like that, that's not a good

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: manager to have because the main reason that's not a good manager to have

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: is that manager is not going to support your growth.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That manager is like, we want you to do what you're capable of right now

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and nothing more.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: This is where Jitender had the opposite.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: He was essentially like, we're going to put you in the biggest possible

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: growth zone that you can be in.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It was good and bad though.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think both sides of that were...

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: At Facebook it was great because he put me in this great growth zone.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I got promoted in six months.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I was on track to getting promoted again to senior in a year after that,

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but then he left.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I got a new manager and that manager was not down to promote me.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That's when I was like, okay bye.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I just left Facebook because I felt like I was deserving of that

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: promotion.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I went to Netflix and got the promotion.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I just worked with him again because I was like,

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to work with managers who believe in me.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: What I said before though is that I think one of the things that

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: happened and why I ended up leaving Netflix,

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and I actually had this crazy burnout at Netflix,

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: was that management is complicated.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You also do...

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You can't put people in positions where they need to grow too much

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: otherwise they're going to fail.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just the nature of the beast.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: If I was like, hey Avery go run against Usain Bolt in the Olympics tomorrow.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got one day to train, you're probably not going to make it.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have ten years to train, you'll probably put up some good numbers,

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but you need some time.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You need some time to cook.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me when I was at Netflix,

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: here was the problem at Netflix.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I was dying to be senior and I got the senior role at Netflix.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: The problem that happened and why I think I burnt out and why I quit

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: was after being at Netflix for nine months,

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the staff engineer on my team, he changed teams.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Then there was an open role and I was like,

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: hey Jatinder, I want that role.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The thing was my senior engineer career was nine months long.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I got immediately put into a staff role where I had

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_02]: way more architecture decisions and way more teams to interface with.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I went from working on in more of a data engineering role

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: where I talked with one or two teams,

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the infrastructure team and the A-B testing team.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I was doing before I got into the staff role.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Then when I got into the staff role it was like,

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: now you're talking to 12 cyber security teams.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You're working on a project that everyone is relying on you to deliver on.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me the growth of those soft skills.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I had the technical skills because I had been growing those

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: on the weekends every weekend for years.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: From a technical perspective I was ready for the staff role.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: From a soft skill perspective I was not ready at all.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why ultimately I think what ended up happening was

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of having hard conversations,

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of pushing back on timelines,

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I'm going to solve this with code.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to deliver a good project.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: If I code more I will be more successful, which is wrong.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_02]: The answer is you want to delegate, you want to communicate.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You also want to say no. You don't want to burn out.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I look back on that situation as I learned a lot.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Ultimately I was like, I can't do this job anymore.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't do this. It's too crazy.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It's too much for me.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I left.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually had a soul shattering experience

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: when I quit my job and then the pandemic happened

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I got really depressed.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Then there was nine months where I was doing nothing.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I essentially tried to be a professional video game player.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It was insane.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Near the end of 2020 was when I started making content.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: That's when I applied to Airbnb.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I applied to a bunch of jobs, Airbnb, Facebook, Google.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I did a ton of interviews before I got into Airbnb.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: When I got the role at Airbnb I got the staff role

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was nervous actually because I was like,

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: if this is the same as what I had before, dude,

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I am not going to do well.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But I learned a lot.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I learned all the hard lessons.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: At Airbnb it was way better.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It was way better because I was able to lean a lot more

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: into that communication and delegation.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: The skills that I did not have at Netflix

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that crushed me.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I was able to develop those skills

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and have a way better work-life balance.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's really important.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Work-life balance is something that I think you've come

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to value over time.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's something I've come to value over time as well.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things you mentioned,

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you're talking about how you were only at one company

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: for maybe two years, maybe the other company for two years.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: You've done a lot of job hopping.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Which a lot of people that I talk to are pretty nervous.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, well, I don't want to leave a job

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: after being there for only a short period of time.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you regret any of your job hops

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: or are you glad that you did them?

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Great question. That's a great question.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Before I got into big tech, it was actually really bad.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: The analyst role, the one that I started on,

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I was there for nine months.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: My next role was a data engineering role.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I was there for six months.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I got into a software engineering role

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was there for six months.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: The first two years of my career,

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I had four roles.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Those I actually do not regret.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I do not regret any of those

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: because of the fact that I was hungry.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I was hungry.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, there is a perspective here

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that 2015, 2016 and now in terms of job market

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and interest rates and a lot of things,

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: there's other factors you want to be considering.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Because back then, jobs would just fall

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: into everyone's lap.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It was easier for sure.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But I also found that those first four very,

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was actually critical

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: for me to get that job at Facebook.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Because otherwise, if I would have just stayed in one role,

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't have gotten that growth

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I needed to get into big tech.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That being said, I feel like when I got in at Facebook

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and that jump from Facebook to Netflix

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: in particular, that one I've looked back on

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a couple different times in my life

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: with different kind of views.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Because when I look at the three big tech companies

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and where I felt the most at home

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and the most involved and a part of it,

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and not as isolated was definitely at Facebook.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: At Facebook, I felt like I was part of a family

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and a team and it felt very good.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I look at 2017,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering when I talk to my therapist about this,

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm always like, look at 2017 in particular

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: as the year when I was the most healthy.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I had the best mental health,

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I had a lot of good connections at work,

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I felt very powerful.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like even now,

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm still trying to find those pieces

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that I had seven years ago.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things I realized

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was making that hop was

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I got very money focused

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and very focused on,

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: it's very important that I make

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: as much money as possible right now.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's not always the way

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that you're thinking about things.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You also want to be thinking about

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: where can I work and learn and grow

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: in a sustainable way over a long period of time.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And honestly for me, looking back on it

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: with a more mature lens,

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: because I did quit my job at Facebook

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was 23 years old

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was a young buck

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was a different time.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But looking back on that,

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that job hop could have been different

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: because there are some people,

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: it's funny because there were some people

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: who were on my team there

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: who didn't hop

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and now they've been at Facebook

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: for almost 10 years.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And I see their lives and I'm like,

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you guys have a,

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like my life is more complicated.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But overall, besides that one hop,

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually feel like hopping is generally good.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so too

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think that's one of the things

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that's allowed you,

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you make more money from hopping

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: than you do at staying a lot of companies.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: For some reason,

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: someone else is more incentivized

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to give you more money than your current company

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: which seems messed up.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It's similar to startups though.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Startups are actually,

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a very strange thing.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So startups that make no money

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: actually raise more funds

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: than startups that have revenue.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Especially if we're talking

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in that early seed stage.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Because if you're pre-revenue

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're selling an idea of like,

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: this could be amazing

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: versus the thing that's different

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: is when you have money,

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: then there's data to look at.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's data of like,

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: well I see a trajectory here

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and now I can plot it

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and I have a better idea

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: of what the value here is.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's where there's like a bias.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: The same thing happens

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: when you're an employee, right?

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Because if you are interviewing,

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you're selling them on your potential

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: of what you could do for them,

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: what could be awesome, right?

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But then once you're stuck in the system

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and you have a year of impact,

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: which might possibly,

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: some of that could be not your full potential

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: but that's because of the company

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: is just bad at making you productive

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: because companies have stupid processes

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and all sorts of,

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: they have hard teammates to work with.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: There's so many reasons why

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: the potential that you sell the company on

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: versus what is actually delivered

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: can be different.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But I also think that companies

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: their promotion processes

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and their raise processes

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: are very rigid, right?

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: They're like,

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of times companies are like,

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: okay you gotta be here for two years

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: before we promote you.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like,

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: no, no that's not how it works.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess for me,

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the thing I think about is like,

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the way I look at it is like,

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: if I save the company 10 times my salary,

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: then I deserve 10%.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I deserve 10% of the money

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I save a company, right?

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like,

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: okay, if I'm saving the company $2 million,

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I deserve 200k, for sure.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like,

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: even if I've been there for six months,

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: it doesn't matter.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's about impact, right?

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think more companies

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: are starting to notice that

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and that that's actually the way to go

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02]: because if you wanna keep

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: your high performers around,

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: those people are very good.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's like,

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: if you let them just go to a company

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that's gonna pay them more,

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: like your business will suffer.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Will lose money.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: For sure.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And you had that,

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: if I'm not mistaken,

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: with Robinhood and DoorDash, right?

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_00]: They were like,

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: you're kinda job hoppy,

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't know if you're gonna stay.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And Databricks, dude.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Databricks in particular

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: was the one that broke my heart

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I did the whole loop with them

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and then at the end,

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was like,

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: dude, you could have told me this

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: in the first interview,

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: but we have 10 hours of interviews,

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but okay, whatever.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But at the end of it,

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: he's like,

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, I just don't think

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that you're gonna stick around.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: There's companies that like,

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is important,

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a caveat with job hopping

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: is as you become more of a leader,

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: there is an expectation that you stay longer.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And it makes sense,

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: because if you have a leader that leaves,

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: it's very disruptive to the whole org

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: or whoever they're leading,

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: those five, 10, 20 engineers

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that are under them,

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: they're gonna be lost for three to six months.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And that can be very,

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: because as a leader,

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: you have leveraged impact,

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but you can also have leveraged impact

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in the other direction.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You can impact the company.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Your departure is gonna...

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just your impact that's leaving,

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: it's also gonna impact the morale

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: of everyone who's under you.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And so for sure,

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's one of the things I think that

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: if I ever did go back in,

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: into industry or whatever,

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I would want to find a role

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that I would be down with staying

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: for three or four years.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I would want...

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Part of me feels like it's so weird

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: because I get all these stock grants

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're always over four years.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, okay, I'll do two years

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm just gonna throw away the other half.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I don't care, whatever,

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: those stocks are not meant to be.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: That happens from time to time.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious with what you just said,

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: with all those different options

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that you've had in your career.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Going from a quote unquote data analyst

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: or some sort of role where you're doing

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: data analytics to doing full stack development

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and then specializing in data engineering specifically.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: What is the path, in your opinion,

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: look like from going from a data analyst

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: to a data engineer?

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, that's such a good one.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel lucky.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: For me, I think one of the things about

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the analyst role that I picked...

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's one nuance and caveat

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanna talk about real quick

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: when I graduated, I graduated with

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a computer science degree.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a computer science and applied math dual major.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a bachelor's degree.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And when I was interviewing,

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually had two offers.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: One was to go do full stack development

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: for the US military.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was in Davis County Hill Air Force Base.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the middle of nowhere, you tell me.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's terrible.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Not my favorite place.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the other one was to go work

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: as an analyst in Draper.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Draper's nice.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Draper's great.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: The military role actually paid over double.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like 65K.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it was a engineering role

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of an analyst role.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So you get that bump there.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: But also, for me, I picked the analyst role

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: for a couple of reasons.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: One, it was at a startup.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Two, everyone at the startup,

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: except for me, had a PhD in math,

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: machine learning or statistics.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd be the only one at the company

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: who didn't have a PhD.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, whoa, I feel like that's crazy.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, that is like a crazy environment

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that I wanna put myself into.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I know that if I do that,

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I will just soak up all that knowledge and learning.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So, and I think that that's an important caveat.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But when I've thought about that transition

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: from data analyst to data engineer,

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that there's a couple of things.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I did that transition after that.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, because honestly, my computer science degree

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: did not help that much with like data engineering.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it wasn't taught at all.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So besides like one SQL class.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's already something analysts know.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think other things that you really need to know

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: are gonna be like, you need to know

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Linux and Unix.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you need to know how to use the command line.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a very important thing.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like know how to just do all the things.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Copy files, make directories.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe even use Vim a little bit.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Like and the thing called SSH,

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: where you can like use the terminal of another computer.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Then there's all sorts of things like that,

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that I think are super important.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Like are in some ways they're becoming less important

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: in data engineering over time.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Because of like platforms like Databricks

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and Snowflake and they're just making.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just everything's just like the easy button now.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like part of it is like,

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the transition is actually getting easier over time.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is great.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually think that's a great thing.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it means that analytics and companies

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: is just gonna be less bottlenecked.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But other things right,

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you need to know about distributed compute.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Because if you've been working,

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: most analysts they work with SQL

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and they might work with Postgres or SQL Server

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: or like Vertica or something like that.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And like learning about like distributed compute

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: with things like Spark or BigQuery or Snowflake

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and understanding how SKU works

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and how to manage all that stuff.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That's another big thing.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Because then you can run queries on terabytes

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and terabytes of data and it will come back.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it will actually come back.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It might take an hour, but it will actually come back.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll actually get a result back.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that's another one.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Python, Python is the other big one.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You gotta really, really hone in on that Python skill

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's how you build your pipelines.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Python essentially builds all your pipelines nowadays.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'd say those are the main things

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that you gotta really focus on.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, it's not too many things.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's easier said than done.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: That's for sure.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you do those things as an analyst,

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you're opening, you're developing your toolbox too

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: where you can have, be less restricted

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: in what you're doing and also probably make more money

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: because data engineers on average

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: make more money than data analysts.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And those are just hard skills to learn

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're in demand skills.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I honestly think that there is a third role here

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that is emerging that I really love

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: is analytics engineer.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's actually like the halfway point between.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: 50-50.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, where you're like an analyst and a data engineer

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: where you don't have to know all of just

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the crazy technicals of data engineering,

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: but you know enough to build a pipeline.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You know enough to generate data.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you can unblock yourself for most pipelines.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's only the crazy scary technical ones

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you pass to a data engineer.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I mean, I've had so many great partnerships

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: with analytics engineers, both at Netflix and Airbnb

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: where essentially I will go and work on

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: just that master data layer.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then all of the metrics and visualization

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and experiments and everything,

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that all gets handled by the analytics engineer.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And they just work with tables.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't have to work with APIs

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: or extracting anything.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just like, here's a good table.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Now make aggregates on top of it and fancy charts.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And that role is really emerging

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think one of the things that people are realizing

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: is that most companies don't need a data engineer like me

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: who can process data of any size

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: because they don't have it.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they don't have a petabyte of data.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like they might have one terabyte of data

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're like, this is really big and annoying.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And so because that's what the...

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that role didn't exist

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: because we felt like you had to be in one

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: of those two buckets, either data engineer or data analyst.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it's similar with...

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: There's another role in between data analyst

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and data scientist as well.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think these new roles are very awesome

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: because they're great.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Because there's the product analysts.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're like product analysts,

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that one's where it's a data analyst

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: who knows experimentation, product analytics,

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: all the kind of statistical stuff

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that you need for A-B testing.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But they don't necessarily know all

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the deep inner workings of ML and XGBoost

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and all that data sciencey stuff

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because they don't really need to use that

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: because that stuff's again used for 5% or less

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: of actual business problems.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think those two roles are roles

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: to be looking out for,

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: analytics engineer and product analyst.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Those two roles are gonna be much bigger

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_02]: in the coming years as well.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's hard to keep track of all the titles.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: The analytics engineer is one that's really emerged

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in the last five years.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I like,

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm big on data career titles

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're so weird

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're hard to actually know what they do.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Because analytics engineer versus data analyst

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: versus data engineer, you can make an argument.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Those all kind of sound the same, right?

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: To just untrained ears.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But one of the frameworks I actually really like

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: is your builder to investigator continuum

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: where a, you wanna explain that?

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You have a full stack developer

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of in the builder phase.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so essentially all these roles are broken down

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: between, it's on two dimensions here,

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: where you have what percent of the time are they building

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: versus what percent of the time

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: are they digging into the data.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Where you have a full stack software engineer

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: is gonna be almost exclusively building.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they're gonna be 100%.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then data engineer is gonna be one below that

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: where they're gonna be spending probably 75%

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: of their time building, 25% of their time

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: digging into the data, checking out,

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: is this dirty, is this weird?

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I need to figure this out.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Then you have analytics engineer,

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: which is right in the middle.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Analytics engineer is gonna be like 50-50

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: between building and digging in.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you have below that, you have the,

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that's where you have data scientist or product analyst

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: is gonna be that kind of like,

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: where they have 75% of the time they're investigating

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and digging in, and then 25% of the time

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: they're doing, they're setting up experiments

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: or they're building dashboards or stuff like that.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And then data analyst is not,

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not usually 100% investigating,

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: but they are like a large percentage,

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: like 80 to 90% investigating and then 10%

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: building dashboards, building Excel sheets, whatever,

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: all the different views and pivot tables

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and all the things that analysts do.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that continuum

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because I think it's really hard to know.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, of course there's gonna be certain roles

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: where it's labeled the data analyst

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe they're building 40% of the time.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: These are just like-

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's rough.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like bell curves, right?

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_02]: This is like the median, right?

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I think that's useful to try to figure out

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: what you do in different roles.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And knowing what you're good at, right?

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's one of the things

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I recognized after doing Tableau

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: for about nine months in my first role

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: was I was like, I wanna build more.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I loved building Tableau dashboards

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: because you could just create something so cool

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: so quickly, right?

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Especially after you master it.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Tableau is a crazy tool, right?

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It gets a bad rap, I feel like sometimes

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: from people who like code

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: because they're like, why would you use Tableau

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: when you can just use ggplot

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: or you can just use like-

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Or like for me D3.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: D3 and I'm like, dude, yeah,

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but do you know how long it takes you

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to build that viz in D3?

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_02]: D3's so hard.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like in Tableau it's like connect

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you drop two pills and then you're done.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas over D3 it's gonna take you 10 times

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_02]: or 20 times as long.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, yeah, D3's crazy.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I did a lot of D3 work at Netflix

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm like, I recognize that like almost all visual.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: The only time that you actually wanna use D3,

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I've learned what the line is,

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is for when you need a chart type

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that doesn't exist in Tableau, right?

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: My favorite example that I did at Netflix

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: was the network chart type

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: where you have all the nodes

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and how they're all connected.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a very like,

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's like animated and it like dances around

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and stuff like, and when I built that,

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I felt very like, I was like, yeah, that's right.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, this is the take that Tableau.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, even though this was slow,

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you can't even do it in Tableau.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though it's slow.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, one of the things

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to talk to you about was,

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: do you think that someone

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: with like a non-technical degree,

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: like let's just say maybe like a high school teacher

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: could become a data engineer straight from,

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: straight from a high school teacher to a data engineer?

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would say that like, it's an interesting one.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that it's gonna be more challenging.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that it's possible.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely think it's possible.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, I know that there are like,

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: for example, I have this friend Ken

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: who I worked with at Facebook.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: He's still on Facebook actually and doing great.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And he, his background is in like psychology.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Like he has got his bachelor's in psychology

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and then he just taught himself how to code

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and then he got in at Facebook.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, if someone like him can do that, right?

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And he can get in at Facebook and also keep growing.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I think one of the things

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that I think is like tricky with these kinds of questions

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: is like, it's not really about what your background is.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more about like what you like,

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's like, if it is something that you like

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and like you have,

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: your brain is wired to do those things.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause I definitely feel like there are people,

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: there are people out there who are like very extroverted

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and very people oriented,

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: who they could do data engineering,

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but they would be miserable.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, that's not what they would want to do.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, I think that one of the things

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that we need to do in our society

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: is kind of shift things a little bit.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And because I honestly believe like excluding

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: a couple roles like doctor and lawyer

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and like there's a couple of roles out there

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: that like really do require just an insanely

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: ridiculous amount of education.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you exclude those roles,

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I firmly believe that pretty much,

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: if you look at like 90% of the roles in society,

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like everyone can mostly do those roles.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there is some things around like capability,

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: where it's like, are you an analytically minded person?

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: If the answer to that question is no,

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: then don't be a data engineer.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll hate it.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll hate it.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not gonna be for you.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But then it's like, then it comes back to like,

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: okay, for like a high school teacher.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: If you love teaching, a lot of times those people,

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: like if they're down to like deal with

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: hundreds of high schoolers every day,

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: like those people are probably

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: at least a little bit people oriented.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's where I,

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: if that was one of their strengths,

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I would probably guide them towards a tech role

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that was a little bit more people focused

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think data engineers specifically

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: is gonna be one that is less people focused.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So like, I think for someone like that,

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: like something like data scientist,

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: data analyst or like product manager,

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: like one of those roles is probably gonna be better.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But then again, it depends, right?

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It depends on like,

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: was this like a high school math teacher?

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Was this a high school like programming teacher?

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Or was like a, or they like an art teacher?

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think those things matter.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But like, I think that like the main thing

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to say here is that like,

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: it really doesn't matter.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Like your background doesn't matter.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, cause like, I mean,

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: if there's people who don't have

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the computer science degree,

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: they don't have the technical background from like school.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they're getting in at Facebook

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_02]: where like Facebook accepts point,

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: they accept 0.2% of people who apply.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: 0.2%, right?

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And there are people, so it's like,

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: if it was a hard requirement

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that computer science degree was a hard requirement,

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: then there wouldn't be people like him.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: There wouldn't be those people,

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: like I wouldn't have worked with those people, right?

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Those people would not be there.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And so like, it shows that like,

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: it's more than just like your degree

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: or like where you came from.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: There's like other things that also are a part of this

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that like matter a lot.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think like that part of it is really important

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: cause I think a lot of people let their background

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: like determine their fate, right?

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's one of those things

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that like I really caution people about

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: cause it's like you can always reinvent yourself.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You can always change your mind, right?

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is like a beautiful thing about life, right?

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that for sure.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's, that's actually what I wanna talk about

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: is your background.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is, for those who don't know,

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Zach is, he was making half a million dollars

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: at these big tech companies.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_00]: You, if you look at it from like an objective perspective

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and I hope you don't take offense at this.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You kind of like, your background would be like

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you have no business doing that almost.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, 100%

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you were a smart kid growing up

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but got into drugs super early in your life.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You went to, and I made this with the most respect.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You went to Weaver State,

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_00]: not a top tier university in Utah.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Not even, not even top five.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not even top five.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Might be fifth.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure fifth or sixth probably.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you have ADHD.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You kind of had no business ending up where you did.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally agree.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But I like that what you just said

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: is so many people get hooked up

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00]: on like what their background is

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and what society says that they should become.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I forgot to mention,

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm from Utah.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Zach was born here.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You're from a place in Utah.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know where it is.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I had never really heard of it.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 100%.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like Clinton or something.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Clinton, right?

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I have no, I know every city in Utah.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I have no idea where it is.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You're like, I'm like, it's a really small town.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I know it's north of here but that's it.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like you have no business

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: with becoming who you did

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but you didn't let your background

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: slow you down because of that.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, well there was a moment for me.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a moment where like,

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew that there was a moment

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that like changed my life forever.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it was crazy.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Like this was at the beginning of 2016.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like when, yeah, when I was really struggling

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: with drugs and like,

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: because I had graduated and I figured everything out

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I was like working at,

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: by that first data engineering role.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I was like,

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I want something different.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I want something better.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I want something new.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm stuck.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm stuck here, right?

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when I was like, you know what?

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just gonna move.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just gonna try it out.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna leave Utah.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna try something out

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and go somewhere different and be brave, right?

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And cause like, I think one of the,

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: this is another thing I had learned.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is like a thing that I realized

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that is it's kind of a part about life

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that is scary, I think in some regards as well

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: is that like,

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I know that leaving Utah was a critical part

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of my success because one of the things

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that was happening here was a lot

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: of the connections I had made here

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: were actually holding me back.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: They were actually being there

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02]: cause they were like, they saw me

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and they saw me as like a source of hope,

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: a source of like excitement and inspiration.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But the thing was, is they were also there being like,

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, but like, let's also just drink every weekend.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's all just get high every weekend.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Or even sometimes on the Tuesday.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, okay, dude, like what's going on?

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's like, it was like really taking back

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: from like my creative output

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and like my, just my health this well, right?

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I decided to like, just, I was like, I'm done.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna, I'm done.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm done messing up my life.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna leave.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna go to the other side of the country.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I moved to Washington DC and I, and it was hard.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very, very hard, especially those first couple

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: of months cause I was like, I was just so used

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to having like all these friends around

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and all these people and all these parties.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it went from that to like,

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: like nobody, right?

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was like, okay, go make, go start over.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You can start over.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You have no friends.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you know nobody here.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was good though.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It was good because one of the things

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that that allowed for like the first time

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: in my life was to have that, my own voice really kind

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of bubble up to the surface because one

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of the things that's kind of weird

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: about Utah in particular was like, I always felt

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: like I was kind of stuck in between.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Utah has like this thing where it's kind

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: of make you choose where it's like,

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you either are gonna like be a part

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: of the church and be a good kid

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: or you're gonna be a rebel

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're gonna like just kind of go in that boat.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I felt like that was, that was it.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, now looking back on it,

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I know it's a false dichotomy and then there are

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: like kind of gradients that you can pick

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: in the middle as well.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But like at least when I was like a teenager

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I honestly believed that you either had to be

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: like a Mormon or an anti-Mormon, right?

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, yeah, to like be on the other side.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, I felt like one of the things

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that I loved about like leaving here was

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: all of that went away.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: All of those pressures just evaporated.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it was just like, what do I want?

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: What do I want as a person?

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, that's what it allowed me

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: to like finally listen to myself.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's like where, that's also when I was like

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02]: started being even more productive

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: when I really started hitting a lot of the

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: like side projects and coding projects

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and just like really getting into it

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: because I didn't have the distractions as well

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: cause I was like, I'm not doing drugs now.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have friends to party with.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I have my Xbox and my freaking laptop here

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and I can either play video games

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: or I can code, right?

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, I kind of forced myself to do that.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And that like changed me.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it was like, it was crazy

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: cause it was like after like six, seven months

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: of being sober, that's when I got the job at Facebook.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It was then, it was really crazy.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I got and like, it kind of manifested that way

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: where it was like once you kind of find your space

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you can do that.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there's a couple things though

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that I think are also important here

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: to just remember about stuff is that like

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: this stuff like your story does impact you, right?

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It has impacts in certain different ways.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I know I'm still impacted by a lot of this stuff

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: but like, you can, like if there's something

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that you really, really want, right?

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it is, like if you, you know, show up

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and pay the price, you'll get it.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: The universe is very fair in some ways.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: That's like at least in terms of like

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_02]: if you want something that is like within reason, right?

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And you are like willing to spend,

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the way I look at it is like

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're willing to spend two to three hours a day

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: every day on something that you want,

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you'll get there.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll get there.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Like because guess what?

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Most people don't do that.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Most people like, it's like most people

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: can't find 30 minutes a day to exercise, right?

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Even though that is something that shown

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that shown that like if you exercise

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: for 30 minutes every day

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: like you are gonna live seven to 10 years longer, right?

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: There's like hard data on that, hard data on that.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's again, most people can't even do that, right?

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like if you just being consistent

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that consistency of just like showing up

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: is being like I'm gonna be here every day.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna do it even when I'm sad,

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: even when I'm tired, even when I'm like

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's like, it's because if you do that

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the other thing about it is like

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and you kind of rely on discipline more than motivation

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_02]: because I used to rely on motivation

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: because what happens when I rely on motivation is like

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I get these freaking high, high peaks of productivity

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I have weeks of nothing, right?

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And it gives me like, I was like, oh well, I'm not

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not happy right now.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just not in the mood to code, right?

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, but if you let like your emotional state

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: determine what you do, you don't have

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that much control over your life, right?

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's, and you're not gonna be able to mold it

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: in the way that you want to.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's, I'd say that's like the

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_02]: when it all boils down to like how I got to where I was

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: even though like the whole, you know

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I was the only one at Facebook from Weber State

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just me, right?

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, yeah, like all those things.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, I feel like that was the main learning

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that I kind of stumbled into.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I stumbled into back like in 2016

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02]: or I was like, well, this is good.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I love it because I think my takeaway

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and hopefully for everyone watching takeaway is

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, even if you're in a situation

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: where like you're a stay at home mom

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: who hasn't been in the workplace,

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe you got some like degree that's like

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: you feel like it's basket weaving and completely useless

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: or like you struggle with mental health stuff.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: If the consistency can take you from where you're at

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to where you wanna go.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and even in a short amount of time,

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: like it's not like, it's not something

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that we're saying like, okay, you have to like go

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and grind data analytics, like three hours a day

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_02]: every day for four years or something like that.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like, it's one of those things

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: where like it's like my perspective on it

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: is like these timelines, like if you are that consistent

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: the timeline is at the longest a year.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's really like if you were doing it

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: but obviously I think some people like that

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_02]: maintaining that consistency is what's tricky

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and then that's what can extend timelines

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and make things like take a little bit longer

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: but like generally speaking, like I know for me

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_02]: like from another perspective was like

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: after I created content on LinkedIn every day for a year

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew that was gonna be my new life.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Even though I wasn't making money yet.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew that was my new life at that point

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: after doing it for a year,

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: cause I was like now I've been doing it

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: for almost four years.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And like it's crazy to think about

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and like that consistency is there's something about

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: especially like that year mark because it's like

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: it's where like you are officially like

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I always think about it like you're now officially

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_02]: invested in this thing for more than 1% of your life

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's kind of like like

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that's where the universe is like,

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: okay this is your thing now.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: This is like and then like doors open up

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and like opportunities come to you at that point.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why I think that's why like

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that's one of the reasons why like college is so like

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you know like looked at very well

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: cause they're like oh it's not even 1%

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: you're like three or 4% of your life now

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's like yeah but like I don't know

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: like it's kind of spread out more right?

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not as focused

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's the thing I like about like these like

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: these like boot camps and starter programs

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02]: is it's like it's a way to get to where you wanna go

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: as quick as possible right?

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You're like I'm not trying to teach you anything

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that is not necessary.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you don't have to take the boring classes.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah yeah, there's no gen ed classes here right?

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that yeah that's sweet

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's actually a good plug.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: If you guys are watching this

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you've probably seen Zach's social channels

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but if not we'll have him in the show notes

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: down below go check him out.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Check out his boot camp.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You have a cohort you just finished or you got it?

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: January's gonna be the next one yeah

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: we finished one in June

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and I want like spending the next couple months

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to like really like refine the platform

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and refine the curricula

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and get it like really really just perfect

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's gonna be great.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I know the cohort January is gonna be really amazing.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Sweet well thanks Zach for coming on.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah yeah for sure I'd love being here.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Appreciate it.