189: Why Your Data Analyst Resume Gets Rejected (Resume Expert Explains)

​[00:00:00]

Avery Smith: Andre, as the co-founder of Novo Resume, you've seen literally thousands of resumes. What's the number one mistake data professionals are making with their resume?

Andrei Kurtuy: Oh yeah. So actually this drives me crazy because I see. so many other fields, but also in data science, in science and for data analysts. it was actually last week, uh, I reviewed the resume from a data analyst actually with five years of experience at Amazon. their first bullet point was actual responsible for

Avery Smith: for data.

Andrei Kurtuy: And I think that. That's like saying I

Avery Smith: Same.

Andrei Kurtuy: because of course you analyze data because you're a data analyst. here's the

Avery Smith: here's a mistake.

Andrei Kurtuy: people make,

Avery Smith: Make and especi

Andrei Kurtuy: case, like

Avery Smith: like data

Andrei Kurtuy: they treat their resume

Avery Smith: license documentation

Andrei Kurtuy: of

Avery Smith: instead of a sales

Andrei Kurtuy: 'cause I think your resume should be a marketing

document.

and it should sell

Avery Smith: Sell you for

Andrei Kurtuy: to the

Avery Smith: employer.

Andrei Kurtuy: [00:01:00] And over the

Avery Smith: Over the years, like over the past 10 years

Andrei Kurtuy: we

Avery Smith: and

Andrei Kurtuy: I think hundreds

Avery Smith: hundreds of

Andrei Kurtuy: of resumes. And I think usually

Avery Smith: thousands,

Andrei Kurtuy: like

Avery Smith: like

Andrei Kurtuy: them, they just

Avery Smith: just use like normal tests without the input.

Andrei Kurtuy: they just

Avery Smith: They just use the task for, from the job description.

Andrei Kurtuy: it's

Avery Smith: That's very lazy. And

Andrei Kurtuy: or the

Avery Smith: where the HR manager, they already know that.

Andrei Kurtuy: I

Avery Smith: And I think here

Andrei Kurtuy: in

Avery Smith: big this case,

Andrei Kurtuy: a

Avery Smith: like that example, would be

Andrei Kurtuy: before, analyzed

sales

data using

Avery Smith: using

Andrei Kurtuy: But the good

Avery Smith: the good example.

Andrei Kurtuy: could be that I, or don't start with I, but you can

Avery Smith: You can say uncovered

Andrei Kurtuy: million in hidden

Avery Smith: revenue,

Andrei Kurtuy: by analyzing sales

Avery Smith: sales pattern,

Andrei Kurtuy: leading

Avery Smith: leading up

Andrei Kurtuy: 80% Q4 growth and.

Avery Smith: and

Andrei Kurtuy: Here.

Avery Smith: ly

Andrei Kurtuy: you can follow a very easy formula, like you can take context plus action and then plus impact. I think every bullet that you add in your resume should make the

Avery Smith: hiring manager.

Andrei Kurtuy: that I need this person. if

Avery Smith: Any

Andrei Kurtuy: doesn't have dollar

Avery Smith: have signs for

Andrei Kurtuy: or time

Avery Smith: [00:02:00] time safe,

Andrei Kurtuy: are

Avery Smith: you're actually just

Andrei Kurtuy: the job

Avery Smith: job fixed.

Andrei Kurtuy: I said before. So yeah, I think that's the main mistake that, yeah, people make.

Avery Smith: Okay, so, uh, bullet points. People have bad bullets, um, and they just basically say what they did. But if I heard right, what, what you're saying is they should not only say what they did, but also like what was the actual impact of that? Like, how much money did it save, what percent went up or percent went down, how much time was saved?

And that's how you can kind of make a bad bullet point into a good bullet point is just by, by putting one of those three things in there.

Andrei Kurtuy: Yes, that's, yeah, that's exactly right.

Avery Smith: Okay. That, Hey, I think, hey, we could, everyone could stop listening right now, and if you just do that, I think that would be, uh, a lesson worth learning and I think you'd see, uh, a lot of big, uh, dividends on your resume and your applications. Um, I'm, I'm curious what your thoughts are on a TS compliance. So, uh, a TS standing for applicant tracking [00:03:00] system.

It's kinda like this mythical monster that just seems to be like sucking a bunch of resumes into the black hole, or at least it feels that way. Uh, what are some tips, uh, to get past the a TS and actually get your resume seen?

Andrei Kurtuy: So here that you say that I have actually a poor story in a way like that to share because a couple of, uh, weeks ago, I helped a friend of mine. Who was a data analyst at, uh, Novo Nordisk. 'cause maybe you're aware that Novo Nordis, they, uh, laid off 5,000 people, think one month ago. And yeah, Novo Nordisk, they are based in

Avery Smith: Based

Andrei Kurtuy: and I'm here in Copenhagen, so I have, I know many people working there. uh, he applied after, like, after the layoffs, like he applied to more than a. I think 200 jobs and zero callbacks. And usually it was because he was

Avery Smith: was using an

Andrei Kurtuy: type of template, uh, two

Avery Smith: two

Andrei Kurtuy: and

Avery Smith: and.

Andrei Kurtuy: skills charts like images. So, uh, and [00:04:00] because of

Avery Smith: Because of

Andrei Kurtuy: resume was invisible to a TS systems and like the

Avery Smith: like the mistakes and what they.

Andrei Kurtuy: here, when you think about a TS, is that most of the times you should use a, like one single column. Uh, two column work as well because, um, but this mostly for modern a TS systems because they can read even two columns if it's clean and text-based. So no image or, uh, no image

Avery Smith: Image

Andrei Kurtuy: based, uh, text. And then the

Avery Smith: and the second mistake,

Andrei Kurtuy: that you should have

Avery Smith: standard matters and

Andrei Kurtuy: for the

Avery Smith: sections. And I see lots of people actually being very creative saying my journey.

Andrei Kurtuy: very creative

Avery Smith: creative stuff, but you should choose write work, experience that

Andrei Kurtuy: It's very

Avery Smith: very simple, but,

Andrei Kurtuy: Then also you

Avery Smith: also is part of very like simple formatting,

Andrei Kurtuy: no

Avery Smith: long tables, no traffic links, no bed and.

Andrei Kurtuy: And

Avery Smith: And then the last team here would be that

Andrei Kurtuy: file

Avery Smith: file [00:05:00] format.

Andrei Kurtuy: a lot and in the last five to 10 years, I think text-based PDF

Avery Smith: Media

Andrei Kurtuy: are the

Avery Smith: the best,

Andrei Kurtuy: but

Avery Smith: but you need to make sure it text based,

Andrei Kurtuy: and not image based

Avery Smith: based

Andrei Kurtuy: and you, you should use Word

Avery Smith: or

Andrei Kurtuy: or Doc X only

Avery Smith: other one.

Andrei Kurtuy: requested. to test your

Avery Smith: consideration

Andrei Kurtuy: s usually have a

Avery Smith: have a very simple

Andrei Kurtuy: that

Avery Smith: what

Andrei Kurtuy: doing. And

Avery Smith: and.

Andrei Kurtuy: our templates, this is like the first

Avery Smith: First lesson that I'm doing this,

Andrei Kurtuy: you

Avery Smith: you should

Andrei Kurtuy: copy

Avery Smith: copy your resume contact from the P.

Andrei Kurtuy: just

Avery Smith: just command or control A, you see all text

Andrei Kurtuy: and then copy it, command

Avery Smith: and see, and then you just past into, into a note

Andrei Kurtuy: That's

Avery Smith: that's

Andrei Kurtuy: actually the ATS sees. It doesn't

Avery Smith: doesn't see how the fancy and apple

Andrei Kurtuy: looks. It

Avery Smith: looks.

It just takes a text,

Andrei Kurtuy: the whole

Avery Smith: all text, and then.

Andrei Kurtuy: So it's, that's I think, the quickest test and the best way to make sure your resume's a TS compliant.

Avery Smith: That's a super cool test. Uh, I like that. I like that it's easy. Uh, I like that literally you can just do it like control a, control C, [00:06:00] control V, uh, and, and have it done quickly. I think that's a, a good way of looking at it. Um, you said so many good things in there that I, I want to go into. Um, so many different questions on, uh, one thing you mentioned was like modern a TS.

Versus like, I guess non-modern at s And I think that's important to point out that not all t ATSs are the same. It's not just like there's one a TS, there's um, there's a bunch, uh, just depending on what the companies use and where you're applying. So like for example, LinkedIn has an an a TS essentially right?

When when you easy apply to a job on LinkedIn or a job that's posted on LinkedIn, um, that process is maybe different than if you're doing it on the company site. And just one little tidbit that I wanted to give. As someone who's hired people on LinkedIn, if you have your resume, um, Asa word file and you do easy, uh, easy apply on LinkedIn in order for me to view your resume, this is not from, I guess like the, what the computer's seeing, right?

'cause like you said, it's probably just seeing the text, but as me is like the hiring manager, what I was seeing, I had to download all of your, [00:07:00] uh, resumes to actually view them versus a PDF. LinkedIn just displayed it for me. So automatically, just like, it was so much easier for me to, to view people's resumes if they were a PDF than if they were a Word doc.

And so just like right off the bat, like if you submitted a a, a Doc X, you were at a huge disadvantage. 'cause it was just so much more work for me to actually view what you were, what you were trying to tell me that you're a good candidate. Um, so I just think it's interesting. I, I wanted to ask you like the PDF Asa text versus PDF as an image.

Is that like a certain setting or if you're using like Microsoft Word. Or or Google Docs, and you're just like exporting to PDF. You're good.

Andrei Kurtuy: I think yeah, if you're using Microsoft, uh, doc or Google Docs. Yeah, it. Automatically downloads it Asa text-based PF, and it's the same one of resume when you download Asa PF, it's a text-based PDF, but in the past I saw people like using Word or using other tools and they save it as an image or I know it happens for some people [00:08:00] and I think this happens a lot when people scan their resumes and then they send the scan version and they see it's a, sometimes also it's A PDF, but it's a image.

PDF. And I think that's where issues can happen.

Avery Smith: That makes sense. Okay, so no multiple columns is a little bit dangerous. Uh, make sure you have no images. So none of those necessarily super fancy looking, um, resumes that might have images on it. I know you guys have a lot of really a TS friendly, uh, templates available on Novo resume. Um, make sure that there's like no tables.

What about links? Like if I put my, my LinkedIn actual link or if I put a link to my portfolio? Are those okay?

Andrei Kurtuy: Uh, yes. But, uh, here, just make sure that you use the full url, linkedin.com/your name and you don't have it. You don't have the link hidden. Especially the important links. So you should have the full link because then the A can take the full link. And this is especially important, [00:09:00] uh, like especially in the header where you have your LinkedIn, your GitHub, and all those important links.

So it should be the full link.

Avery Smith: Okay, so you're saying that I shouldn't say like GitHub and then have the full GitHub link, uh, be clickable you, you're saying I should have the full link displayed, um, in, in the actual resume. Okay, that's good. That's good to know. Okay, that's good to know. And that's just 'cause it makes it easier for the, the a TS,

Andrei Kurtuy: Uh, yeah, the teacher, because the a s then would read that whole

Avery Smith: so we.

Andrei Kurtuy: then it's also like the best then for recruiters. So they don't, so they don't, uh, how do you say, they're not

Avery Smith: Not suspicious

Andrei Kurtuy: It's a wrong link or it's hidden, it's

Avery Smith: the.

Andrei Kurtuy: I saw people u uh, using the Bitly links and you know, links like that, like link shortener because I understand that sometimes your name and the full LinkedIn link, it might be long, but then if you use a Bitly or if something to shorten your link, it might seem very suspicious. And that's important for a TS, but also then [00:10:00] for actual recruiters or for actually hr.

Avery Smith: Yeah, that's, that's actually a good point I haven't thought of before. Um, yeah, when I worked for corporate ExxonMobil, they were very careful about what links you were pressing and you had to be, if you press the wrong link and you got caught, you would lose internet access for like a day. Uh, so you gotta be really careful with that.

Uh, it is interesting though, 'cause I could understand also people wanting to use like a link shortener. 'cause it also tracks link clicks. Like I have a link shortener anytime someone. Clicks it, it sends me an email, Hey, someone just clicked your link. And then I'm like, at least someone's looking at my resume.

I guess technically computers can also click links, so I guess you don't know if it's a computer or a human. Um, anyways. Okay. I learned something new today. That's, that's very valuable. Um, in terms of hidden stuff, I'm curious, you're, you're, if you've heard about these people who like will take the job description.

Pull out a bunch of the keywords and like jam those at like the bottom of their resume using like white, uh, font color so no one can actually see it like a human being. Couldn't see it, but like a computer's actually reading it. And it's just like [00:11:00] you're just listing like a bunch of skills like Microsoft's Excel, Microsoft Power, bi, Tableau, Python, R like you're just putting all of the keywords basically you could possibly need in a resume and you're just kind of jamming it at the bottom, invisibly to a human, uh, but perceptible by a computer.

Is this like a valuable technique?

Andrei Kurtuy: No, not at all. Especially, I mean, it worked in the past, like the same as it works in SEO with the keyword, staffing, staffing, but it doesn't work anymore. And I actually know someone that tried a couple of years ago, I think two, three years ago, and uh, he. Actually copied the entire job description into his resume and he made it size one with white text. So it's not, mean, you could not see it, but the result was actually that he was blacklisted by three major tech companies like permanently, because the A, they can have systems to blacklist you from their database. So he cannot apply anymore to their jobs. And is because From, [00:12:00] uh, from my research is that the modern a s, they use NLP now and also OCR, so they can optically read your resume and it detects manipulation, like spam filters. So, yeah, and I think if you think about it is like, here's like good or bad example. So if you do. In your resume if you do bad keyword stuffing, uh, stuffing, it would be just writing that you're SQL expert using SQL for SQL database with SQL server and SQL queries. Like some people do that because they want to make sure that the keyword is mentioned so many times, you should actually think of smart integrations.

How do you integrate those keywords in context where it makes sense? So you can write

Avery Smith: Right

Andrei Kurtuy: achievements or in your summary you can write something like. Optimized, SPL queries, reducing runtime from three hours to 15 minutes, which enabled real time csuite dashboard. can write that Asa sentence and then it makes sense in the context. And [00:13:00] end this, I think the rule here

Avery Smith: percent

Andrei Kurtuy: each keyword, the main keyword should appear two, three times maximum in

Avery Smith: month.

Andrei Kurtuy: And always with context and impact. And yeah, think you should think of it

Avery Smith: Will be to.

Andrei Kurtuy: engineering and you should think quality over quantity. Because at the end of the day, the a TS and also the hiring manager, they don't care of how many times you mentioned that keyword on your resume.

If you mentioned it only once and it made sense in the context, that's enough.

Avery Smith: Interesting. Yeah, I think, um, I think it, this is a tough balance 'cause obviously you don't want to put like SQL seven times in the same bullet point. And obviously you don't want to do the whole job description hidden somewhere on your resume. Um, but I, I've see a lot of, I help a lot of people who are pivoting from like.

Being a teacher or being like a, a, an Uber driver and help them become data analysts. And a lot of times they're applying to data analyst jobs and obviously they don't necessarily have data analyst experience, at least in their work section. Right. And um, [00:14:00] you know, it's not like Uber drivers are working every day with.

With Python, for example, but they're applying for jobs where Python is, is a requirement and they're like, I can't get any, you know, I can't get any interviews. And I'm like, well, the job description's asking I'm, I won't say Python, I'll say, I'll say Power bi. It's asking for Power bi. And you don't have Power BI once on your resume.

So I think there is something, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's still something to be said about having the keywords on your resume at least once, you know, maybe, maybe even three times. Um, you don't wanna have 'em a hundred times. You don't, you also don't wanna have zero on your resume. I.

Andrei Kurtuy: Yeah, no, that makes sense. But you need to have at least a bit of truth to back it up. So yeah, if you never use it and you just put it there because it was in the, in, uh, in the job ad, in the end, it's actually time waste for you and for the hiring manager, because if you don't have the skill and if you don't know it, it's like, yeah, you would get an interview, but then they ask you a question and it ends there. You need to think about that as well. I think.[00:15:00]

Avery Smith: Obviously, yeah, you don't wanna be, you don't wanna be lying, you don't wanna be wasting anyone's time. I am curious about this. So, um, let's say I wanna be data analysts for, for example, maybe they're in my bootcamp, the data analytics accelerator. Uh, they log into Novo resume at the beginning and they're like, Hey, I need a new resume that's gonna help me land data jobs.

Um. Let, let's say that they maybe have used SQL once, but they're not really proficient in it. It's, it's obviously really hard to keep updating your resume as you're upskilling. Obviously, you should keep your resume as up to date as you're gonna be, but let's say you're going through a bootcamp where in the next 12 weeks you're going to learn a ton of new skills.

Do you think it's okay? Like if I'm going to learn SQL to put it on my resume right now so that way I can start applying for jobs and by the time I actually end an interview, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be. Proficient inl. Do you think that's okay?

Andrei Kurtuy: Yeah, I think that's okay. Uh, mean this, I think it's more of an ethic question and let's say. You should never kind of [00:16:00] put expert in Python if you've done one, one tutorial. not doing that, but like a borderline here, like what we were saying is like, you can say it's you're proficient in Python or you are, yeah, you're proficient in Python.

If you're still learning it and you're part of the course and you know that by the end, the end of it, you would be, uh, good. But the perfect here to showcase, especially for, uh, for people, uh, in your bootcamp would be that. say you write data analysis or Python or whatever, and then parenthesis you can write certifications and then you can say February, 2026. So people against the hiring manager would know that you have that skill and you're actually now learning even more. And then you're completing it by that date. This would be the perfect way, you can still say the borderline kind of, um, area where you can still write that you're proficient. you know that. Until you would, until you will get to the [00:17:00] interview stage or later on in three, four weeks, you will anyway, finish the bootcamp. So by that point, you will be proficient.

Avery Smith: I think that's great. Uh, I think it's important to, to not sell yourself short of what you're, what you are going to do as long as you do it. Obviously you need to still put it in the work. Um, let's talk about tailoring your resume. So one of the things that we've heard a lot about is, you know, you should tailor every resume that you send for every job.

Description. So if you're applying for a data analyst job at, let's say ExxonMobil, you should have a different resume than if you're applying to a business intelligence engineer job at Netflix. What's your take on that?

Andrei Kurtuy: Yeah, I think these helps a lot and I think. to answer this question would be the best to share my personal story actually, because when I was, uh, 19, I, uh, I went to, I got to Denmark to study in Copenhagen and

Avery Smith: And I sent up it over 1000 January.

Andrei Kurtuy: to get any job that I could, and the results were like zero, like nothing. And [00:18:00] then I did, um, I did one, one month course, like it was a. Very intensive course to be a bartender. Then I had that certificate, so it was very tailored. And then I

Avery Smith: I

Andrei Kurtuy: to cocktail bars, and then in one month I got a

Avery Smith: got a job.

Andrei Kurtuy: and I think I only applied to 20 places. So the data and the difference is crazy. And also I think from our research

Avery Smith: Research.

Andrei Kurtuy: that I've seen is that generic resumes, usually they get two to 3% response rate while tailored ones they get 11 to 15. And that's, that's a lot. That's a huge difference. Usually I think. At the end of the, at the end of the day, also, like I understand, um, I understand users usually saying, or I see people all the time on social media and they say it's exhausting.

And understand, yeah, it's exhausting to do it. uh, for that, usually I recommend like a very easy system that I think it's, let's say it's a 15, 10 to 15 minutes that I think it. Matters a lot. So what you should do, you should create a one [00:19:00] mega resume, let's say like that with everything. You should never send this, so you should have one resume with everything that's your mega resume. For example, in Novel Resume, you can create one main example and then you can duplicate it. You can duplicate that master one, and then you always, um, you always tailor the duplicate one. Then for each job, you look at a job a you, you identify three pain points. Then you should pick the relevant bullets from that, and then apply it to your master, apply it to your duplicate resume, and then just adjust the summary and the skills. And then you can easily match their terminology if they use special skill, if they use some special words that you don't use, I think by this, by having a master resume, and then you just duplicate it so you have everything there, and then you just tailor it to the job at. Like very easy because I know that in the same industry they can be different terminologies, they can use different tools.

So even if you have knowledge of them, they're still a bit different. And this tailoring, I think it [00:20:00] helps a lot because all the time, I think you send 30 tailored resumes, they would beat all the time 300 generic ones.

Avery Smith: That makes sense to me. Like obviously if you're, uh, like in your situation where you were applying to like a bunch of different titles, like obviously when you narrowed it down that makes a lot more sense that you got more, uh, replies. 'cause it's a lot, a lot more tailored. Uh, but yeah, I do think it is exhaust.

Thing. Uh, and it's hard to do. So I like the idea of the mega resume. I love the name of the mega resume, um, where it's like, this is my giant resume where I just kind of duplicate it and then delete some stuff and change some words. I think that makes it a lot more manageable. Um, and that kind of goes along with, with, uh, my philosophy that I've kind of been teaching where it's like, okay, one of the easiest things you can do to tailor your resume.

'cause, 'cause I'm a big believer of when we're applying data analyst jobs, there's like actually like 50 other different titles we, we could be applying for. And they could be just. M they could be title data analyst jobs, but they're not like financial analysts or marketing analysts. Those are basically data [00:21:00] analyst jobs.

So one easy thing I tell my students to do is just like, take your, take your Meg mega resume, and this is like the laziest way you can tailor their resumes is just change like in your, in your description or your objective. Uh, if you say like you're a data analyst, instead of saying a data. You're a financial analyst, then you have a financial analyst resume.

I mean, you can, and you can kinda do that with, like you said, like change the skills. You could do that with maybe different industries. So I think, I think the takeaway here is tailorings good. It's also really hard. So find a balance of like one that's not going to make job hunting overbearing, but also it's going to expedite the process and help you get interviews, um, more often.

Um. Cool. When you're, when you're looking at a, a resume, let's say you like get a resume for the first time, what's like the first thing that you personally are looking at?

Andrei Kurtuy: Myself, I'm looking at the title and the less job that a person had, so the professional title and then the job description to see if they actually worked in. If they worked in an area in [00:22:00] the domain that we actually hiring for.

Avery Smith: Okay, so in our case, it would be like if they, say they're a data analyst, you're going to their experience section, and you're like, does, does it actually say that they're a data analyst? And if it, if it says that they're not, that's not necessarily the greatest side, right?

Andrei Kurtuy: No. I mean, this is usually at the first step of the hiring process, I would say. When I get 200, 300 applications, and this happens a lot that. I think usually when we hire someone, I think 70% of the applications, and this is usually due because of the LinkedIn Easy apply, that at some point we were hiring someone for, uh, performance marketing and someone that was a logistic coordinator applied because on 'cause it was like so easy. And I'm like, doesn't make any sense. Like there's no, no match between that. I think they just applied because it was Yeah, easy. So I'm looking at that. I'm looking if they have the title and then if. The last job was that because let's say, yeah, we get 300 resumes. [00:23:00] by that I might filter down to 50, and then to those 50, I will look for more things.

Avery Smith: So if, if you're a career pivot, that's, uh, that's a little scary, right? 'cause it's like, well, I wanna, I'm a teacher right now, but I wanna be a data analyst. Is there something that like these teachers could do to try to, uh, win over, uh, you as like the hiring manager or the recruiter to be like, yeah, I don't, like, I'm not working Asa data analyst right now, but I have the skills and I'm capable of actually doing it.

Like, what would you need to see in a resume to, to maybe consider those people?

Andrei Kurtuy: I think this is actually a great point and it's the what I see. trend changing right now because until I think in the last, until. Two years ago or something, it was always to send a reverse chronological resume. So you start with the work experience and then you go backwards. But what's happening now, more and more, it's the shift to a skill-based resume. So skill-based or functional resume, let's say like that. you don't start with your work experience, but you start with your professional skills [00:24:00] section. But you don't just lease the skills, you don't just lease, um, data analysis. And all the other skills, you only choose like four or five that are the most important. I mean, of course in this case, data analysis. And then you have bullet points under it. So you treat that skills, you treat that skill. Asa work, Asa work experience section, let's say. So write data analysis, and as you said in this, in your case that you said, um, the teachers that wanna pivot. They probably, they did some certificates and they did some work, some projects.

So under data analysis, they can write some bullet points of the projects and of the tests that they actually, where they used that, that skill. And in this case, I would actually look at that. So I would look, okay, this person is now, uh, uh, transitioning to this position and it has that skill. And actually they did something to prove it.

Avery Smith: Interesting. So you'd have, you'd have like, almost like, not, not a skill section, like the way we're maybe traditionally, we traditionally think about them where it's just [00:25:00] like, uh, a list of a bunch of one word, uh, skills that we have. You'd have like a section called data analysis skills. It would be, you'd have bullet points, and each bullet point would basically be maybe a project that you've done or some way that you've actually used those skills, um, in, in your life.

Um, is, is that, am I, am I kind of imagining that correctly?

Andrei Kurtuy: Yeah, that's correctly. Because I guess in your bootcamp, they need to do certain tasks and they need to work on that skill. So like the results or what they achieved in the bootcamp, that can be a bullet point there.

Avery Smith: That's, that's interesting. Yeah, we, we do a bunch of projects in the bootcamp and I've always had the students say, like, have a project section on their resume. Um, but I wonder if renaming the project, I think like a lot of 'em just name it like projects or, or maybe data projects. I wonder if we switch it to data analysis.

Experience, like if that, if that maybe sounds better, it would help people look at them a little bit more. 'cause we do, in our project section, we do try to like do one [00:26:00] bullet per project that basically summarizes, you know, instead of just saying like Excel project, it would be like analyzed 4,000 rows of marketing data to.

Better understand marketing trends that was in Excel. That was a terrible example of the bullet point. But something where it's like, this is the skill we did. This is the data set, this is how big it is, and this is what we, we accomplished with it. So I wonder if renaming it to like data analysis experience would be, would be useful.

'cause um, yeah, we definitely wanna have a project section or at least something that's highlighting the, the experience we do have. Um, but I like the idea of data analysis experience. It just sounds a little bit more professional. I don't know. I like it.

Andrei Kurtuy: I mean, you can have that. And, uh, especially for these, uh, types of resume, the skill-based resume, usually I recommend that the most important things are the skills that you have, as I explained, uh, before that you would have with bullet points, but then as well, the certificates and projects as you mentioned. one project you can have multiple skills or you can achieve multiple things. But [00:27:00] at the same time, one skill can relate to multiple projects. So it's different way kind of to showcasing what you learned and also what you achi achieved. And I think this would go back to the, what we talked in the beginning where, uh, how to write the bullet points that you should not just write a task, but actually what that task achieved or, uh, what was the outcome or what was the value that it brought. Because if you just analyze data, like everyone can analyze data, but. Uh, by analyzing it, did you discover something? Did you add some value? And then I think that would make the most impact.

Avery Smith: Makes sense. I wanna get your, your thoughts on the future of resumes and ai. A lot of the times it feels like we are, uh, it's almost like the Spider-Man meme where it's like Spider-Man pointing back at Spider-Man and it's like. A resume written with ai and it's like a TS processed resume with ai. And it's just like, is there any humans in this?

We're just, we're just AI people talking to AI people now. [00:28:00] Um, so how do you personally see AI changing the future of resumes and job applications?

Andrei Kurtuy: I think it is a huge, uh, a huge change that's happening now. I think two weeks ago, I, I posted even on LinkedIn, uh, car talking about this. I think it's a stupid kind of arms race because it's. Job seekers are

Avery Smith: Using.

Andrei Kurtuy: write their resumes, and then, uh, recruiters are using AI to screen them. So then it's AI versus ai.

Like uh, the recruiter doesn't see their resume and then like vice versa. But even, um. I think it was last month or two months ago, we developed an a TS checker feature. And for it, we actually used AI to screen resumes and to test it and stuff. And I saw it kind of screening a thousand resumes in 12 seconds. And that's not meaning, that's seconds and it's 1000 resume. And I think AI is getting better at reading resume because you can read so many. But [00:29:00] being human I think will become then an edge because everyone can write their resume, which IGPT and it sounds perfect. And what I think is happening here is that, yeah, employers now, uh, they use AI to understand context, not just keywords. And as I mentioned before, everyone is using JGPT for resume. And, uh, again, like on LinkedIn, I see so many hrs and so many, uh, so many people that I, uh, usually talk with for research and I see them complaining all resume sound the same. And there are some specific keywords that you can see all the time because of AI that you can see g PT using all the time.

Certainly, certainly. And uh, usually also they use sometimes AI because it can predict. the job success based on patterns. But I think here there's a paradox because perfect resumes, like perfect AI resumes that you would have, they, uh, they make [00:30:00] human authenticity more valuable, as I mentioned before. So, uh, I would say here, there should be a smart approach that. Job seekers should keep in mind is that you should use AI for like structure and a TS optimization. You can, like we are doing that

Avery Smith: Sometimes as well.

Andrei Kurtuy: you, tell people, okay, you should take the content of your resume and then you should copy paste the job ad and then ask if it matches and what are your recommendations there. But then you should

Avery Smith: I

Andrei Kurtuy: your achievements, your.

Avery Smith: try myself

Andrei Kurtuy: Like the achievements that you have and everything, you should write them yourself because

Avery Smith: otherwise.

Andrei Kurtuy: ai, like JGPT, Claude or all the others, they are just using specific formulas. And then your achievement would sound the same as the other 100 that use JGPT. So the achievements should be written by yourself, but then again, you can use AI for grammar, for human storytelling. And hu no, you should use AI for grammar. And then yourself, your human part should be used for storytelling, like the story behind the resume. I would say that [00:31:00] that should be kept in mind. And then now I remember there was, uh, one guy that I saw at some point a post that he actually had a section as failed projects on his, uh, on his resume to share kind of lessons learned, which is completely against

Avery Smith: Completely.

Andrei Kurtuy: wisdom that like, let's say a couple of years ago, I would not have recommended that.

I would say that's the worst thing that you can do resume. But actually he was hired because it showed. Honestly, like it showed that, okay, so he failed at something, he tried something. I think no one that would use AI to write a resume would add that section. So I think here is where we see the switch happen, that it goes more to the human side, to the humanity. my prediction would be that by 2026, uh, or 2027, the resumes will be very dynamic. I think they will automatically adjust to each role. And we have, uh, we are also working on that. So we are working on a feature that you have. [00:32:00] Um, you have your resume, that's you, for example, you have the master resume.

Then you would just, uh, copy paste the link that you will include a link for a job post. And then we would tailor it for that job post in kind of one click. So you don't have to worry. But then again, we would all the time say like a big warning that you should, like, this is kind of the ideal resume based on what you have, but you should tailor it yourself to make sure it's. a hundred percent yours and you're not, uh, and you're not taken by surprise in a job interview when the interviewer would ask you something and they're like, oh. And they would say, oh, I see on your resume that you did this and this and this, and you would be, oh yeah, I don't

Avery Smith: Yeah, I don't know.

Andrei Kurtuy: So that's what people need to take into consideration.

Avery Smith: That's a cool feature. I'm excited to see that, uh, rolled out at, at novo and uh, because it sounds nice to be able to, to do that a little bit automatically. Um, yeah, it's, once again, it's hard 'cause it's exhausting being a job seeker. So obviously you wanna try to. Maximize your time and work efficiently.

Um, but I know personally, [00:33:00] um, recently when I was hiring, I actually hired this person. Uh, it was a mistake, turns out. Um, but, uh, one time they submitted some of the, this work I asked them to do and it was clearly a copy and paste from ai. Uh, and if you're, if. That's not a problem. I want all of my employees, I want everyone to use ai, but you're, you can't take the human brain out of it.

Um, and it was just very evident that there was very little human input in this. And if that's on your resume, if like your resume is very clearly written by ai, I think that's going to send a red flag to recruiters and hiring managers that, Hey, this person's kind of lazy and they're gonna just use AI for their job.

And, um, let's be honest, ai, if it took. Most people's jobs, it would do a very mediocre job, especially right now. Um, so yeah, I think using AI but then adding human elements to finish it, I think that, uh, makes a lot of sense. Um, I'm curious, like what the worst resume advice you've ever heard. Like what's the [00:34:00] worst resume advice anyone's ever said that you're like, I don't agree with that at all.

Andrei Kurtuy: General, uh, and I think this comes back every couple of years, like a zombie kind of almost that, uh, it's videos, video resumes are the future that, uh, and that traditional resumes are that I think I've seen this, we've heard this since 2015, I think, where we were at, uh, business Academy in the incubator.

There was another company working on a video resumes thing and it was like, oh, that's the future. And it was like 2015, you know, so it seemed crazy, but. It's almost 2000. It's almost 2026 now, and it still doesn't work. We still haven't seen like a huge video resume, let's say platform or something that it, it works. So I think this is like a bad advice that usually I see and I think, um. Uh, I think usually the video [00:35:00] resumes are failing or why it's a bad advice is because as we talked before, uh, for example, a TS systems, they cannot process videos. They can only process, uh, they can only extract text. And then companies, usually they have compliance

Avery Smith: Requirements,

Andrei Kurtuy: they need

Avery Smith: searchable

Andrei Kurtuy: or, uh, documents that they can archive and. again, if you have a video, it's like very hard to search through the videos. And, uh, storage wise as well, they take so much more space. And then of

Avery Smith: and.

Andrei Kurtuy: like legal departments, there's a bias risk when you can see protected characteristics. And also, like in us, Canada, uk, even on, even on traditional resumes, you should not have a picture because it leads to bias.

So people or discard because of that. So when it's a video resume, it's even worse. And then I think because we talked before and you said about hiring, imagine yourself, uh, reviewing videos instead of 200 resumes. It might take you like hours instead of minutes, [00:36:00] so yeah.

Avery Smith: That makes sense. Yeah. Video resume. Video resume kind of sounds like a nightmare for both ends because, um, I actually, I have a, uh, a mock interview platform that's, that's video based where you get to do like these asynchronous mock interviews with me and, uh, yeah, I can tell you that people. People hate being on camera often, so that sounds like a, a nightmare for the job seeker and for the, uh, recruiters because that's just a lot of information to process, uh, on your own.

And there's just so many job applicants these days that that would be very hard to do. So that makes sense. Um. Okay, cool. Um, thank you Andre for all of your uh, comments here. If you guys haven't checked out Nova Resume, be sure to check out Nova Resume. Um, I was actually talking to Andre before we started recording.

Uh, Nova resume is actually what I used for a resume in 2018. Um, to land my data scientist job at ExxonMobil. So I think I, uh, I used that resume for a couple years, so now it's, [00:37:00] uh, what, seven, eight years, uh, later. So pretty cool to be talking to, to Andre again. Uh, Andre, anything to say to job seekers out there who are, you know, looking to land jobs?

Andrei Kurtuy: I think especially nowadays, I think it's a very hard, uh, the job market. Like it's very hard. And, um, I think you should look at resume as like data about your career. And I think as data analyst, you should be the best at presenting data, right? at the same time, I think, uh. People that, uh, are data analysts are often the worst because they focus on technical accuracy over the business impact, as I said at the beginning. think that's what people should, uh, should keep in mind that at the end of the day, a resume is a marketing document you should think about. Like when you buy a product, you buy it because it solves something for you and that's what your resume, or that's why your application should, uh, convey. To the, [00:38:00] the hiring managers.

I think when you understand that and when you can do that, I think your chances of getting, at least getting interviews are increasing, are increasing ex exponentially. 'cause you need to think about each job ad it's actually a problem that they have because if they would not have a problem, they would not hire someone. So, uh, if you think about that, then it's very easy to present yourself Asa solution to their problem. Hey, I'm the best that can solve that problem that you posted there. Then in the interview it should be very easy. Easy for you to explain why.

Avery Smith: Love that. I love that you said that there are a little salesmen going out there and trying to sell you. I think that makes a lot of sense. Uh, well thanks Andre. We'll have a link to, uh, Andre Novo resume in the description down below, and thanks for all your wisdom.

Andrei Kurtuy: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure talking with you.

Avery Smith: Okay. Awesome.